artbuc
enthusiast
Reged: 02/15/04
Posts: 398
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I just found out that my Bryant LP furnaces are covered by this lawsuit. I have been noticing white flakes in my condensate trap for many years. I now know this is the PP coating coming off the secondary heat exchanger.
What is the best way to confirm if my secondary heat exchangers have failed? Can I simply measure the pressure drop with the inducer fan running? I guess that would tell if it is plugged but would not tell if it had a hole in it.
Thanks.
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HeatPro
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/30/04
Posts: 23546
Loc: South New Jersey
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The usual result of a hole in the secondary exchanger is failure to run the burner. If a very small hole, there can be sometime ignition failures, a larger hole creates a lack of suction for the pressure sensing switches that permit ignition.
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Friends tell people how to live past 60.
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artbuc
enthusiast
Reged: 02/15/04
Posts: 398
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Thanks for the response. I do not have evidence of a hole, but I have ample evidence that the PP liner is failing. My traps are loaded with white flakes every year. I am not sure what Carrier considers failure but I believe if the secondary heat exchanger liner delaminates, that is a failure. And, judging by the amount of crud in the traps, I assume my secondary is at least partially plugged. I did measure 1.5" WC drop across the primary and secondary exchangers with the inducer fan running without combustion. I believe I read somewhere that the drop should be in the range of 0.5-1.0" WC.
Edited by artbuc (03/11/10 12:49 PM)
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HeatPro
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/30/04
Posts: 23546
Loc: South New Jersey
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With combustion, the drop could be within that range as combustion 'fills' the chamber. I can agree that flakes and delamination are disappointments that shouldn't be required to show a failure, especially at an inopportune time, for recall.
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Friends tell people how to live past 60.
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artbuc
enthusiast
Reged: 02/15/04
Posts: 398
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The 1.5" WC drop was without combustion. I'm not sure I understand your coment about failure. Are you agreeing with me that delamination should be considered a failure, even if the exchanger hasn't yet corroded through or otherwise cracked?
Edited by artbuc (03/11/10 02:10 PM)
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dora
Search and Rescue
Reged: 02/16/02
Posts: 19451
Loc: Somewhere under the sun
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The suit against Carrier/Bryant has settled but you should be granted the enhanced heat exchanger warranty. I'd call a Carrier dealer and have it checked out. If indeed it's damaged you should qualify for the enhanced warranty. I posted a blub about this a few years ago , and even though these exchangers have proven to fail, even after the lawsuit Carrier continues to manufacture them the same way they did before the suit. Unfortunatly the dealers aren't about to tell anyone looking to buy a new furnace about this.
So, make sure you maintain a working CO detector, you never know when it'll come in handy.
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Life, put on your big girl panties and deal with it!
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artbuc
enthusiast
Reged: 02/15/04
Posts: 398
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Thanks Dora. The Carrier guy is coming next week. I talked with him a few days ago immediately after he talked with Carrier. Apparently Carrier is beginning to challenge warranty claims very hard. Unfortunately there isn't any easy way to confirm failure. The claim sheet which must be submitted by the Tech asks for a CO test and a visual inspection. However, it doesn't define how to do this visual inspection. You can remove the water collection box but that just shows you the end of the secondary. If your secondary is rusted through, you could see that by removing the house blower. If your secondary has a big hole, you can detect that with a CO test, but then you don't know if the hole may be in the primary exchanger. If your secondary is plugging, your burner enclosure will get hot but Carrier doesn't have a spec on allowable pressure drop. If your secondary is still working ok but the PP lining is failing (you are finding it in the water trap), you may not be able to see that delamination without disassembling the entire furnace. The last thing I want to do is spend $500 only to find out that Carrier won't cover my unit.
PS My Carrier guy says Carrier has extended the parts & labor warranty on the secondary beyond the lawsuit settlement of 20 years. I don't know exactly how much they extended it but I will find out and post it back here.
Edited by artbuc (03/12/10 04:55 AM)
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dora
Search and Rescue
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Posts: 19451
Loc: Somewhere under the sun
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I'd get an inspection that goes beyond a visual and a CO test, those are not really reliable in determining if the Ht.Ex. has failed or failing. There are many ways to test and some more reliable than others. Carrier is prolly hurting a bit financially from this lawsuit and since they didn't "admit" that their product was faulty it leaves a lot of wiggle room for them with future claims. I'd personally try to one up the testing to narrow the field.
It sounds like you also have a good thumb on what to inspect, perhaps Harold has some idea's for you as well?
And yeah, I'll be interested in what you find
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HeatPro
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/30/04
Posts: 23546
Loc: South New Jersey
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Quote:
Unfortunately there isn't any easy way to confirm failure.
Actually, it is fairly easy to confirm failure:
The exchanger leaks water into the bottom pan when it holes near the end of the coil.
The exchanger leaks combustion gases into the fan section when it holes near the start of the coil.
The unit usually stops working because the pressure is no longer correct for the fan pressure switch when there is a hole.
Until that happens there is no failure. It isn't something you really want to happen, as it usually occurs when the furnace is needed for heat.
If you have a clue that it is happening because there are flakes coming off the exchanger, it is time to replace the coil or get a new furnace that won't have the problem. Fooling around with a company that has a few hundred lawyers to prove that the sky is actually red and white like a candy cane when you say the sky is blue isn't something to get involved with as a game you might win.
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Friends tell people how to live past 60.
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